And these algorithms manifest in the form of a BMS a person may develop. In the end, all the cells will become even in density and you will get the best performance out of your battery, you may even save a battery that could have gone bad. I remember that you used to be able to buy a recondition battery when i was younger (30 years ago ) i was told that they applied a high reverse charge on the battery then then drained the power then recharged it the proper way anyone ever herd of this before? Gary - You have finally told us what your device does. I’ve left my batteries to sulfate at will for months on end. I’m sorry but I am confused by your varying comments - some seem to support pulsing, if only for sulphation that is not too bad, and others seem to claim it is all hokus pokus. From taking it with the battery charged but low… watering it… and hooking it back to the charger and seeing the charger go under load and maintain a decent charge current gives me a good feeling it’s going to be somewhat better. The 14.4 volts setting caters for “average use”. Either it will read zero, or it will read the amount of drain. This gets rid of all the excess cadmium. Nate, I am not sure what your mounting options are, but leaving the battery outside, but putting it into an insulated contained may be your best option. I use either a 13.5v switching adapter or a 14v switch mode adapter in series with a rectifier diode. It was stated, a few years ago, by the industry, that around 80% of battery failures are due to sulphation. OK John, I had forgotten about that earlier post and ‘bad’ cell #4. I looked at 1 of the Victron Energy smart charger technical docs. Lots of knowledge you gentlemen bring to the table in discussion; I’ve read and learned from much of it. I heard a loud suction sound that seemed to be aimed at investors. In a perfect world the electrolyte would rewet that locality and those unwanted substances would go back into solution, but we all know it is not perfect world. Thank you for looking at the Norco. Dear Mr. John Fetter, A large lab building is often plumbed with a separate DI water line. Just email me. Now, both of those options are probably not practical for you. Therefore, that volumes PH goes up and this results in the bad, unwanted and highly irreversible tertiary compounds to come out of solution and interrupt the purer PbSO4 crystalline formation (which would have been whitish) but now is dark brownish or blackish. I do have some batteries that come with acid and charge direct from the factory and those I am careful never to allow to drop below 12.3vlts. But one thing that is understood is that the chemical reactions that take place during, and in the creation of, a state of discharge negatively affect a batteries lifespan and capability, and that this effect can be reduced by charging at 14.4V as apposed to lower charge voltages. スギコールセンター. In addition to the electrolyte being mostly water. Compare their brightness. I have been looking for a batter charger/maintainer. This is complete nonsense, and if true means you have a problem with your car that should be fixed. Anything else I can do to get an eternity from these. Therefore, how much silver might have been put into these batteries and would an economically justifiable amount have any real measurable positive technical effect? The voltage of a fully charged battery will rise to a plateau which will be in the region of 2.55 to 2.65 volts per cell. Whith aging self-discharge raises, so you need to put more current to get around 2.60 V per cell “looking like” it has more capacity when indeed in can have less. Is it cost effective? The childish responses to visitors here speak volumes. Does this mean it was charging faster? I have been using High Frequency Mechanical Stimulation on both FLA/VRLA and several LI-ion derivatives and getting great results. It seems I found a gold mine in the main street of town - but everyone just keeps walking past it, refusing point blank to look. In reading your early comments, at the beginning, you seem to dismiss totally the possibility of pulses being able to reverse sulphation of l/a batteries, even referencing 70 or so patents that you claim have no merit what so ever. Hi, I inadvertently discovered a while back that most “dead” lead acid cells could be repaired by simply using a SMR unit (scanning molecular reorganizer) of my own design based on a modified 1.8T MRI scanner. but what if I connect the battery in parallel to a 12 volt DC source like a DC adaptor. Otherwise give the battery a boost once a month, approx. Chicago’s on the lake and even when the lake is frozen, you get some moderation though the lowest ever was -33C, and the lowest continuous was -24C over a day. Good signs. Simply charge the battery. When I use larger appliances such as hoover, coffee machine toaster etc I ALWAYS run the engine when I believe the secondary alternator output is in the region of 120A. Last readings were taken on 28Th January and after two days on 30 January readings are as following. 1. Let it cool for a night and repeat the next day. The batteries that had been fed the treated water lasted between 40 and 60% longer. And then to charge it to 14v again. The very essence of the chemical interaction that produces electricity produces lead sulphate. If you pour out the electrolyte, fill with distilled water only and cycle it a few times (charge/discharge) and the water ph level starts going up/acidic, from the electro/chem charging, removing sulphation from the plates and depositing sulfuric acid in the distilled water. Much of the inverters circuits will consume power while on whether there is anything running off it or not, so the efficiency will reduce considerably with a smaller load (say 80W vs. 3000W). The company sells a desulfator & speed charger but I myself don’t know much about it, they claim that it can double battery life. Gradually volts increased to 192V. Fourth - carefully check if there is no temporary short in the power supply line. HYow can I get an improved life from the new batteries I am installing.I recharge immediately after every round and maintain the batteries properly. Keeps the water consumption down. I found the Summer issue of BEST on line - no Fall issue. GovSpend - A better way for government buyers and sellers to connect. I am curious as to why do you believe it necessary to provide emphasis on the dangers of long term charging at over 15 volts after first asserting that you have never seen a battery measuring over 15 volts? Ant-sulphation devices have been found to reverse the condition once present. The charging current then simply makes hydrogen, oxygen and heats the battery. Could you please share your insight on the differences among Ctek, Optima and this new one Victron Energy? Pushing a battery life beyond 5 years is the same to try to revive a dead body. I have doubled checked AC output readings using another meter as well, there is only difference of 2 to 4 Volts. • Voltage reading on battery terminals was 13.7V while the inverter had stopped charging the battery. Thanks for your response John. I tend to follow Dr. Pavlov and his team’s (Bulgaria) work over the last 3 decades and it has helped me understand the phenomena and physio-chemical process within the lead acid battery. These are the lead-acid battery “facts of science”. They are sealed and, from what little I know, they do not expire because they are vacume sealed. So any current that exceeds self-discharge of a battery will slow-charge the battery. Unhealthy. John, again you are repeating yourself (for good of self, community, or other), you are just at a loss for intelligent questions to ask based on what I already told you. Today I will bake some more while monitoring the SG. Is it ok if I link to it from our website ( We sell many Car batteries every day and I am sure a lot of the information here could benefit our customers. You cannot desulfate without supplying the batteries plenty of EXTRA energy. Therefore, is there anyone who can address the following question directly: Does I or E govern during a 24h desulphation protocol in accord with this central quote from BU-804b, “...reversible sulfation can often be corrected by applying an overcharge to a fully charged battery in the form of a regulated current of about 200mA. I would continue trickle charging at a few hundred milliampsfor up to a week to fully restore the plates and balance the cells. An ideal way to find out what condition batteries are in is to first bring them more or less to a full state of charge. You can use cadmium sulfate for quicker results. Able to say ‘It does not work because ...x….y and z QED’. Smaller users often neglect their batteries and they end up undercharged. So to maintain the health of power batteries it is a big deal for us, our batteries life ends very soon because during very hot months the battery charged and drained and then charged and then drained, this process overloaded the batteries and it is a continue process. I’ve been fooling around with desulfation, or at least what I believe to be desulfation. John Fetter-I’m not trying to sell anything, anything I discover that will help restore my lead acid batteries and give them additional life I will share with the world for free. suspect the on board 3 stage automatic charger is acting up. I wish the manufacturers would provide more data. a'pexiブランドのオリジナル自動車用パーツメーカー。マフラー、電子パーツ、ダンパー・ インテークなどを企画・開発・製造・販売。本社:東京都八王子市. There is no machine out there that will turn dead material back in to active material. Its the same thing with every company in the world. solar systems running on good AGM batteries (Concorde) are seeing 5+ years of service. 1. There is nothing magic or mystical - other than the wonder of nature herself, here. It is the battery temp, not the air temp that matters. shawn - A person who will not undergo the difficulty of explaining must undergo the trial of being doubted. Dnt get me wrong if the battery is turd in the first place it won’t work. Art - If you are equalizing the battery and it is warm to the touch, it is fine. shaun - The plates were in a discharged state. People used to want to buy good stuff. Today I heard 2 opinions: (a) sulfation begins at 12.45v and (b) it begins at 12.68v. This is very wierd. Third - check the “no load” current in the battery supply line. If your machine is pushing a high amperage and/or is applying 400 amp pulses, above 2.6 volts per cell, the technical way to describe the process is “overcharging”. small charge/discharge cycling helps, probably by redistributing lead sulphate layer more evenly, warming, keeping lead sulphate out of solutionHi, I use desulphator pulse ccts. Can i determine the real capacity of that battery is around 50*current? My real difficulty at this time of year is trying to bring the s.g. readings back up above 90% after each recharge. Our product can extend most batteries to the 15-20 year mark. If the RV is to be idle for more than a month I will remove the batteries and give them charge once per week. why the electron does not collapse into the nucleous of an atom. I hadn’t thought of the voltage divider. Molecules have mass and will respond to certain frequencies of vibration, i.e. As for safety it would be dangerous when disconnected with no load, once connected and charging it would droop to safe levels. Millions of people have tried to do something about it since these early years. Which would indicate that your battery probably has the warm climate electrolyte density, that would be normal. Color changes. The OCV of full charge varies some, but 12.7 is generally accepted. The inverter part of my charger/inverter shuts off at voltages over 60 V.  If I get a new charger then when it charges above 60 V the inverter won’t like it. If you are continuously deep cycling flooded lead-acid batteries and you find that the way you are using the batteries is preventing your batteries from reaching 2.55 V at NTP, then your batteries will not reach full state of charge. Certain people with a keen eye for opportunity and a strong desire for profit have been turning the Gali and Gerbman patent disclosures into products, with impunity. Bertie, nice observations, indeed I had wondered why the temperature of the liquid was so high on the first test, that said overall the temperatures are certainly not normal operating temperature of a car battery. Anyway I’ll be continue to listen. Do you mean to extend the bulk charge phase or the absorption phase? Re: Charles - I am fellow submariner and I understand you are actually looking for a way to bring back life into a lead acid battery - you mention sloshing around and even going in and scraping plates - WAY TOO MESSY. Diodes could work. Is plain overcharging any better than discharge/charge cycles? The barrier thereby indirectly protects the positive grids from corrosion. ! You work at the Kashiwazaki-Kariwa plant? They will respond to pulsing. I’m in the process of charger selection. How can I achieve this? Temperature Correction This happened repeatedly. A beneficial effect on cycle stability has long been known for this acid, which has been used as an additive in conventional lead-acid batteries for many years to improve cycle stability, although the disadvantage of a slightly reduced capacity had to be accepted. Everyone knows what the Chinese will do with a successful product. I use electronic circuits that are simple to make and monitor. The process of lead acid battery formation is very inefficient and very energy hungry. What I think might be important is that chargers “profile”; be that the voltage it charges at, amp (i.e. The damage comes when the lead sulphate compound is not reversed by recharging relatively soon. An extract from not one but two S.A. Pulses probably work best in conjunction with battery being charged, topped up, warmed. The large number of patents tell a story. The pressure at the base of a water tank is independent of the capacity of tank above. Lately I have been trying different amplitudes at these frequencies to see if that speeds anything up. The batteries in large facilities make up over 95% of these types of batteries. There is one for a telephone dialing system, US Pat 5,764,731. It is easy to reverse positive sulfation, difficult to reverse negative sulfation. If it is not recharged immediately, it tends to grow into crystals that are extremely hard and sometimes impossible to revert back into lead and sulfuric acid. What you want to know, everything you want to know and perhaps more than you want to know. Maintenance-free batteries that have died suddenly often suffer from another problem altogether. I do have an interest in any way to prevent and/or reverse sulfation for VRLA batteries (primarily AGM, but GEL too) in solar applications. I work with industrial batteries. retail outlets carry desulfating products on their shelves. John - “No need to use models if we don’t understand how it works” - LOL. (Crystal ‘chemistry’ is complex and has different stages or phases - you just haver to educate yourself about that if you want to know that depth). The step involving the magnesium sulfate is a red herring. It accepted no charge and even at 17 volts no current was registering on the amp meter. You’ve given a single SG value when 48 are required. My batteries in my cars last about 10 years. The bulk of it happens below the visible surface, deeper down in the plates. Fare thee well. Would love to fit NiFE but wide v range would mess up installed electronis and cost very high. Yes, your right I have Exide NS 200 AH battery which is the biggest in this region and it is made for wormer climate, usually temperatures during summer seasons are from 30 C to 44C and it performed excellently during summer months but after 7 months now it is winter season and I am having problems. I don’t have it but the battery looks like 3 car batteries in a series to make up a big 30lbs, 36v 12ah deep cell battery. I have been unable to find one battery manufacturer prepared to discuss this discovery coherently. Alternatively, there simply aren’t that many batteries getting sulfated. in relation to any particular battery construct/condition sceanrio will vary widely based upon a whole number of attending factors. short-circuited cell battery should give 0 volt when measuring. John - You missed an ideal opportunity to share your knowledge on this subject. I agree with you a 100%. I do not claim to know how to breakdown sulfate crystals with sonic waves. You can on their larger units, i..e TSMPPT, but these are not cheap. So, the active material suffers degradation and part of it may fall off the plate as fine particles. The commonly accepted 14.4v used in 12v lead acid charging is born from the assumption that the user wishes to get the battery charged reasonably fast without damaging it. I can’t find any useful info on the internet. Could my batteries really only be partially charged—and I suppose partially sulfated—at such a high specific gravity? You obviously have no idea what you are reading, you clearly are not so smart in IP space. I researched the hard sulphate crystal build up on plates. It is best to measure the voltage of batteries when there is no load (at all) on them. Another thing I would do is warm the battery up to 40 or even try 50 deg Celcius along with continuous shallow charge/discharge cycling. Battery voltage is not a reliable indicator of a battery’s ability to deliver starting current. They have recently been measured independently by several universities using physical measuring techniques and it was discovered that they are, in fact, stable. They had a fairly intelligent algorithm. I have a question: Well, that is when the potential, via electrolysis breaks up the H2O, and the positive H ions fly out of volume and the less energetic negative OH ions are left behind. But heck…even the battery manufacturers are extremely secretive about their own R&D. I’m in a situation that should be a poster child for battery abuse. Once you return the fuse and cycle the locks you will have to wait for the shut-down procedure to happen once more. Or is lead added to reduce them? Now that our society is requiring much more rigorous and longer duty cycles (i.e. I saw exactly what you describe though, just last week. the company sells Lithium ion batteries for the scooter but it is very expensive ($500). Here is what prompted me to get involved in the discussion; I noticed that my car would not start as the engine would not turn over after it was not driven for a week or so. Instead of changing batteries after 2 years I added the equalizer and got another 2 years use. It is convention either to to disclose the source of information on which a technology described in a patent is based or to describe its function. As the specific electronic resistance of lead oxides depends on their stoichiometric coefficient, the changes in phase composition of the anodic layer under the action of these alloying additives affects its electroconductivity. Pulsing breaks down this oxide layer. What is the optimum charge method that will prevent life-shortening maladies and keep a battery’s capacity up? I am not able to nail this down nor i have i been able to invalidate my understanding of the fundamental basis of this phenomenon. So even if a magic pill came out that you put one of in each cell, overnight fix, people (majority) would still not bother. For your ease of reference, go back to October 15, above. This is not a conspiracy, it’s just business. I do not intend to cut open the jar… remove the separators and scrape the plates either… nor had I alluded to that from what I recall writing. Hamlet then turns to his mother and asks her, “Madam, how like you this play?”, to which she replies “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”, I cannot say that desulfators work, but I have used a batteryminder /pulse desulfator on each of my motorhomes 8 D batteries which I just replaced this past summer and they had been in service for over 11 years usung the charger/ desulfators. It takes longer to convert larger crystals. John Fetter, may I ask, something puzzling me. Voltage is higher just after charging because of the surface charge, which dissipates under no load condition within a day, this is normal. What you need to look at is how much battery capacity you will need worst case over a period of time, say a week, and ensure that your battery will be able to support that without going into a deep discharge situation (and consider the battery aging and being cold). 11.08 BATTERY AGITATION. Try to bring the cells up to about 2.6 volts. I am confused. You want to make sure the diodes can with withstand any reverse current. BTW I have used a normal charger and I got the same results. It takes us around the lake all day, but while fishing it is turned on and off so the battery isn’t constantly being used. Lim, J.A. Than I connect every pair of two lead plates together. Leading me to believe the frequency or the amplitude or both are wrong. Two, even some shorted batteries can be brought back into service with a simple flushing process. Denis, I’m dealing with an AGM battery bank, 900 Ah, 24 volts, made up of 12 volt cells, roughly 2 years old with less than 400 cycles. 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